a good decision

[ramtops]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4295007.stm - Maxine Carr, the former girlfriend of Soham murderer Ian Huntley, has been granted an indefinite order protecting her new identity by the High Court.

I think that's entirely properl

Comments

[captainblue.livejournal.com]

Agreed: it's not like she was in the room with Huntley when he killed the girls, nor apparently plotted with him to kill them, nor helped dispose of their bodies.

If it wasn't for the frenzy stirred up by the newspapers, none of this would be necessary in the first place, but hey! They need to sell copy so why not stir the shit whenever they can? Grr!

[brisingamen.livejournal.com]

Indeed ... I've been very angry with the way the media seemed hellbent on turning her into a second Myra Hindley (although I have problems with the way the media dealt with Myra Hindley too, but never mind ... the poor woman is dead now and we need not go there).

On the other hand, I also hope that she's got effective advisers as she does seem to be way on the wrong side of clueless about dealing with her own situation and is as likely to blow her own cover again because she doesn't quite grasp how the world works.

[minkboylove.livejournal.com]

I honestly believe that that woman didn't do anything wrong. It's vile the way the press have hounded her.

[ramtops.livejournal.com]

I agree. It's never attractive to see a baying mob in action ...

[bohemiancoast.livejournal.com]

It beggars belief that she didn't do anything wrong. In particular, I don't think there's any dispute that she lied extensively in an effort to prevent Huntley from being accused of the crime. And one of the features of being an adult, even a rather misguided adult, is that you don't get excused from doing stupid things because somebody else told you to. But I think the relative lightness of her sentence rather took account of the circumstances.

In any event, she's done her time, she's free; it's clear that there are people out to get her; the only thing a decent society can do is protect her as far as we can.

[tanais.livejournal.com]

>And one of the features of being an adult ... is that you don't get
>excused from doing stupid things because somebody else told you to.

Unless you are in the army....

[landsmand.livejournal.com]

So are you suggesting that soldiers (and I guess you mean British ones) have carte blanche to do what they want without any comeback?

Or is the line here that soldiers are stupid and do stupid things because they're told to?

Either way, bollocks.

[tanais.livejournal.com]

Before you get too enmeshed in wetware histrionics have a read of Article 90 and 91 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) here (http://usmilitary.about.com/od/justicelawlegislation/l/blucmj.htm) (I chose a website with easy words and big text for you) - which makes it a crime for a military member to willfully disobey a superior commissioned officer, a superior noncommissioned or Warrant Officer. Article 92 makes it a crime to disobey any lawful order (the disobedience does not have to be "willful" under this article)

Please Note: Stupid does not mean "unlawful".

[landsmand.livejournal.com]

Thank you for patronising me. We will return to wetware histrionics later.

Note that the UCMJ applies to members of the US military service and that the equivalent British legislation is the Army Act 1955, as renewed annually.

Further note that it is equally as likely that civilian organisations issue just as many stupid orders as a given military organisation,

Note, finally, that military organisations which exist on stupid orders tend not to continue existing as they usually get tested to destruction.

In re wetware histrionics, I briefly considered a measured response and then thought, fuck it, he won't get it. So:

Fuck off unless you want to put your money where your mouth is.

Sorry for the distraction, /\/\/ac, I promise this is the last time I rise to this jerk's bait in your LJ.

[tanais.livejournal.com]

whatever.

I'm open to having my p.o.v challenged, but not like that.

I define "wetware histrionics" as someone who accuses me of bollocks without actually backing up an outburst without anything more rigorous; sorry if you feel patronized by that but you're hardly convincing me you're capable of anything more.

Regards

[marypcb.livejournal.com]

I thought they didn't get excused - I thought they got convicted!

it's a paradox - you have to have obedience in a fighting force because otherwise you couldn't get them to go march into a battle, but you have to have smarts for when they're out of the chain of command and needing to deal with something unusual. isn't there a chunk in one of the Tom Holt historicals about it?

[tanais.livejournal.com]

Yes in Alexander at the World's End -- actually there's a bit in The Walled Orchard as well, its one of the popular themes and dilemmas he returns to. The chain of command exists not only for cohesion as a fighting entity but also as a way of ensuring that decision making responsibility lies with everybody along that chain of command. Making and following decisions responsibly only affects those people who are acting under legal orders, illegal orders are the responsibility of the individual to disobey.

[marypcb.livejournal.com]

I thought since Nuremberg the articles made it the soldier's *duty* to disobey

[tanais.livejournal.com]

Agreed. I thought that was adequately put when I used the word "responsibility" -- unless there is something I am missing about the word "responsibility" in this context that does not also include duty? It is all there in Articles 90-92.

Are you possibly mistaking "stupid" for "illegal"? There are many instances of soldiers being told to do stupid things in order to keep them busy (and in basic training to break down some undesirable personality aspects of a soldier finding it hard to adjust to life in the ranks) -- but these are not illegal orders and thus while they can be seen as stupid, they have a purpose and cannot be disobeyed.

[marypcb.livejournal.com]

I distinguish between duty and responsibility; to my mind the former is slightly more active than the latter. There might be acceptable reasons why I couldn't fulfill a responsibility (I couldn't go for jury service during my finals) but a duty is more compelling (I'd have to tell the guy next to me not to cross if I knew the lights were broken).

I don't think 'stupid' is a term you can define rigourosuly enough for debate, let alone it being an emotive word ;-) But I'm honestly not sure what you're saying about the responsibilities of soldiers and the stupid things they can or can't get away with doing - do you think they should be more independant, or held to a different level of account or what? Or what it's got to do with Ms Gullible Carr ;-)

[tanais.livejournal.com]

>I distinguish between duty and responsibility; to my mind the former is slightly more active
>than the latter.

I assumed that was taken as read. I'd of course edit my comment to make this clear but I can't.

>Or what it's got to do with Ms Gullible Carr ;-)

Me neither. I replied to a comment that simply pointed out an instance where something is not always the case.

BTW considering this has made me miss my train so I sadly won't be able to come down for the gig tonight.

[landsmand.livejournal.com]

Absolutely proper. She comes across as a dim bitch (which isn't illegal) who's likely to be targeted by the trash media and the sort of window-licking chav scum who hang around outside Court buildings to hurl abuse at prisoner vans and hound paediatricians out of their houses. She's done her time (an entirely appropriate amount for the offence she actually comitted, to my mind) and should now be left to make whatever she can out of her life.

[thewingedteapot.livejournal.com]

I agree - it is entirely proper. She did something wrong, was convicted and sentenced and served her time. She has to have the protection of anonymity because those who are pointing the finger would apparently be perfectly happy for someone to do worse to her than she ever did. What she did was wrong but it was not the actual murder; what she did was to be stupid, scared and in love.